-> scroll down for transcript
I was carrying a Pentax 17 with CineStill 400D
Ashley’s website is here, instagram here
Ashley wanted you to go here after listening
Ashley was wearing merch from Roots to Fruits
Gabrielle de la Puente
Hello.
Ashley Holmes
Hello.
G
How are you? I did get worried that it was closed. I was like, Oh no, what have we done?
A
No, no, it's just that I think because the receptionist has gone for lunch, so they locked the door. Sorry, I'm getting my attention grabbed because can you see this bird out here?
G
Oh my god, yeah.
A
They -- during the summer use this bird to stop seagulls nesting in the roof. So at some point there might be a man that walks through the building with this on his arm.
G
What is it?
A
I think it's a hawk, but I'm not 100% sure. But there's basically like a guy or a company that John Moores --
G
The hawk company?
A
-- like hire during the summer to stop seagulls nesting.
G
I wanna get a picture of it.
A
We could go down and see if you.
G
Like, yeah, we could.
[jingle]
G
Hello and welcome to episode #5 of the Art Dates Podcast. I think it's #5. My name is Gabrielle de la Puente. The Art Dates podcast is a series where I visit exhibitions with interesting people. Today's episode is with Ashley Holmes at the Liverpool John Moores University MA degree show. I think this is like 3 degree shows in a row and I'm going to miss it. I literally like -- it's the only thing I'll make an effort to go and see any given year. It's really sad. Not sad because it's sad. It's just sad that like, it happens at only at a certain time of year. It's almost as if I need to travel to the Southern hemisphere to catch what they're doing on the other side so that I can just like continuously always be visiting degree shows. I think they've got so much energy sometimes. Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes it feels like new people doing new things, and that's what I'm looking for. Most of the time it doesn't. But when it works, it makes me feel young. So I sort of know Ashley Holmes who we're going on the date with today, but not that well, and for that reason, I wanted to go on a date with him. He sort of fits the perfect category of like 'people that I wish I'd hung out with more and I haven't' and this is like a perfect excuse to meet up, hang out, catch up...
[on the date]
A
How are you?
G
I'm OK, I've just done a morning of writing.
A
OK.
G
So I'm still emerging from that.
A
Yeah, I hear you.
G
But it's good. It's good.
A
What are you writing?
[lift sounds]
G
I'm writing a book at the moment. I'm writing a fiction book about Chile. Fourth?
A
Yeah number 4.
G
I'll bleep this bit because I don't want to say too much on the podcast, but I'm writing a book about [bleeeeeeep] [Ashley laughing] That's a good reaction.
A
What's the creature?
G
The creature is like...
[back in the studio]
... not to say anything else about that for now, but we made our way through to the top floor of the John Lennon Art and Design building where you can hear the seagulls absolutely bloody screaming in the background in the big war against the Hawk, and I finally, finally got to know Ashley Holmes a little bit better.
[on the date]
G
Anyway, welcome to the podcast.
A
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
G
Who are you?
A
How should I introduce myself? I'm Ashley. Ashley Holmes. I am an artist and DJ, and I sometimes do stuff for performances and radio. Yeah, many things it feels like.
G
What's your favourite one?
A
My favourite one is artist. I think of yeah, I'd say artist.
G
What were you doing before the MA? What, like artistically? What were you interested in? It's like two years ago now.
A
Yeah, I guess I still am to some degree, but like combining my interest in music with art, so like collecting and being a fan of lots of different like genres, but mainly like reggae music. And that as like a research place for me to like think about like family history and the Caribbean and Britain and like the actual ways that the sound is made as like a studio process and a technique to use on my own work. So I think I was just exploring that or just starting to like get my teeth into that before the MA.
G
So what do you put in the degree show?
A
It's a combo of things. It's a, well, it starts with sound work, but I've also been making some etchings and gotten into printmaking and yeah, got some of the etching plates because I seem to prefer those more than the prints at the moment. And so there's some etching plates, there's some sound work, there's some photographs that I've been taking or a photograph that I've taken and edited and messed around with a little bit and I think that's everything.
G
Are you happy?
A
Yeah, I think so. It feels quite fresh still. It opened on Thursday last week. So I think so. Yeah, I think so. It feels like a yeah -- it feels like a kind of milestone in a way that I'm, like, quite proud of.
G.
How old are you?
A
I'm 35.
G
OK someone told me like you know, do you BA and then wait like 10, 15 years before you do your MA?
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
G
And I've always thought about that.
A
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That's about right. Actually, I, so I finished my BA in 2013. So yeah, just over 10 years ago.
G
Why now?
A
Well, a bit of a combo of reasons. I've been like debating for a long, long time whether I wanted to do one, what that might mean for my practice. And then I started teaching here in 2022 and was offered a potential of postgraduate study either like PGC or in my subject area as part of like the job role basically. So I uhmed and ahhed about it for a little while. And then was kind of like, is that still a possibility? Is that still available? And it was funded. Exactly. So it was funded, which was another thing that was like, oh, that's really interesting.
G
Can we see it?
A
Would you like to?
G
Yes, yes, yes.
A
I'll lead the way.
G
I love being on this top floor with all the seagulls
A
You can just hear them like at different parts of the building. It's so nice. So here we are. So it's kind of in this space. And then on the left hand side, just here are some of the etching plates.
G
OK, what are we looking at? Can you describe them?
A
Yeah. So the thing that we're looking at at the moment are two circular 12 inch etching plates cut to a record size and then sat on 2 silver chrome turntables --
G
With magnets?
A
-- And I've popped the Sony branding out and replaced them with little pin badges. So in one deck there's like a pin badge of a hummingbird and the Rastafarian red, golden green flag with a lion in the middle and then on the left hand side there's the Union Jack and Jamaican flag like crossed.
G
What's the bird?
A
The bird's a Hummingbird, which is the national bird of Jamaica.
G
Is it? Okay.
A
Yeah. And then just above it on the wall, there's this record cover, which is called Jamaican Ritual Music from the Mountains and the Coast. And yeah, it's a record that I actually found with my friend Mirelle while we were having a little scan in some record shots. And she was like, oh, look at this that I found. Maybe you might want this. Maybe you might like this. So it's kind of, yeah, found its way through Mirelle like handing it over to me when she was digging.
G
It's funny, isn't it? Buying like records blind.
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
G
You have to be so brave.
A
I, I think it's -- I was going to say my favourite way. It's one of my favourite ways I think to like look for stuff because it's just like surprises that come about. You're like, oh, what's this?
G
Did you like some music on it after?
A
Yeah. So I didn't know initially what was on it, but it feels quite similar to some other stuff that I've been collecting. It's kind of like -- I don't know, maybe kind of like folk music or traditional, like collective singing out in the street and out in public space. There's like a field recording project.
G
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So hasn't got much to do it like the studio stuff that you were thinking about.
A
Yeah, I think so. I think there's like a thing around where I've been looking into like the histories of Jamaican music and also just in general like a connection to the Caribbean. There's a lot about a relationship to like the outdoors or to the countryside or to like rural landscape and the area that like my family are from on my dad's side of the family, Trelawny is like northwest in the mountains and in the hills. And it's like this cover just really made me -- it's a place I've never been to as well -- so I kind of like hear about it and I imagine what that is like. So I guess through collecting some of this music and seeing some of the like, imagery of it, I'm kind of like starting to piece together or like dream about what that place is.
G
Interesting. Like have you got plans to go, question mark?
A
Yeah, I would like to. I would like to. I guess the other thing to mention is like a lot of this work is to do with like grief and to do with loss. Like my dad passed away late last year. So I think there's a lot of the kind of connection and re-understanding about like where he's from in a sense of belonging to the islands and to the Caribbean that I think is like, I wouldn't necessarily say the work was about that, but as I've been making it kind of like all of this is like definitely embedded into some of that. So I think for that reason, there's like, yeah, I don't know, lots of stuff that me and my brothers have inherited. Like he built a shop over there.
G
Did he?
A
Yeah.
G
What type of shop?
A
Well, it was like a Barber shop initially. And then he'd like rented it out to another family member so it's now a grocery store. So when he died, like another family member was kind of like, oh, you know, that's yours now, by the way, or you have to take ownership of that. And we have no idea.
G
How many brothers have you got?
A
Two brothers. I've got 2 younger brothers. So we're kind of like, what do we do? How do we navigate this now? So at some point, I think that will be a conversation and a trip that we have and that we make and we yeah, yeah, visit for the first time hopefully together and yeah, and figure out. So yeah. And it's like rural. It's like I say in the northwest, in Trelawny.
G
Have you been anywhere in the country? Wow, that'd be massive, wouldn't it.
A
So I think, yeah, it's going to be like a a big thing to do.
G
That thing as well, I was listening to an interview with a Chilean man who lives in the mountains, and in this interview, he's talking about how, you know, living in the mountains has become part of him. So actually, like, if he'd have grown up next to the sea, he would have been a different person. It was like a, yeah, sort of a way of, of forming identity that I'd never thought of because I'm in a city and in a way I don't even think about the influence of living in a city. So yeah, I wonder about Trelawny as well.
A
And, yeah, my grandparents are from like a different part of the island, from like Saint Elizabeth and Saint Anne's, which is a bit more central. But something that I think about with that generation is that their connection and understanding to like, I don't know, herbal remedies or growing things or to like general surroundings and environment -- and then they're like in this other kind of scenario and in this other place that is like in a city, in a, or in a town, and -- I don't know, just something in that sort of like, yeah, like readjusting.
G
Like, what does that family member give you if you've got like a cold?
A
Yeah, exactly. Or like what is our equivalent of that now? You know what I mean? Like, it's this -- there's something really -- yeah, that I think about quite often about that.
G
A completely different life.
A
Absolutely. Absolutely.
G
And I hope you can go.
A
Yeah, I do.
G
And I'm sorry for your loss as well.
A
Oh, thank you.
G
I didn't realise that'd happened.
A
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, yeah, like I say that it's a thing that maybe the work necessarily didn't set out to be about, but it's definitely like in a lot of what I'm doing at the moment, I think, of that sort of like memory and recalling and thinking about change in a big way as well.
G
What are the images then? Or the image.
A
So the one on the left there's like 2 images that are --
G
Massive.
A
-- Yeah, like a meter and a half wide, that're like next to each other, vinyl stickers on the wall. The one on the left is like a colour image of like a flag on the beach and or like a pole with a red and a yellow and a green flag wrapped around it on the beach with this kind of like cliff in the distance. And then a kind of degraded and black and white image that's like immediately next to it.
G
Where did it come from?
A
And it's from -- So my, my partner Anna is Italian and we visit Italy a couple of times a year, usually like in the summer and towards the end of the year around Christmas to go and visit her family. So this is from a month or so back on the coast in a town called Tropea in Calabria, which was like a holiday and, and a kind of like processing time as well and decompressing time. But like where we were going to on the beach, there was this flag that we'd see every day. I was like oh it seemed like the Rastafarian flag colours this.
G
I was just thinking that!
A
Really odd.
G
Just in a different -- upside down.
A
Yeah, exactly. Just like the colours are flipped so the red is on the top rather than on the bottom like it is in the flag. And I was just kind of like really curious about what it was. And after the trip, like I'd been, yeah, taking lots of photographs as we were kind of on holiday. But after the trip, after getting it developed, I was like, I'm going to look into this and just quickly see what the deal is here. It was actually like a warning system on the beach for the lifeguards to say, like, red is when the water is dangerous and green is when it's OK. So like a traffic light system, essentially. But I really liked the idea that, number one, there was this, like, connection to the Rastafarian flag. And then #2 the image kind of feels like it could be further along the coast from what's in this vinyl record -- the same place.
G
Yeah, that was my assumption. But I suppose you're like looking for that.
A
Yeah, exactly.
G
You're looking for these things.
A
Yeah, I think so. I think so. And then the way I think the way that I like to work is that things kind of like arrive in lots of different ways from found material, like starting from like found sound and music, first of all, I think. But yeah, there was like a really interesting talk that I was listening to by a Jamaican writer and theorist called Carolyn Cooper. And she was talking about traffic as a way of -- or traffic in Jamaica and on the on the island as a way of thinking about social hierarchy. And she talks about the traffic light system as a driver as a way of like, thinking about how pedestrians navigate busy roads. Who gives right away? Who has to wait? Who has time? Who did all of these kind of really interesting things and kind of like.
G
What what was it about the about -- How did that apply to Jamaica specifically and not just every road?What did she say?
A
Well, I think she was talking about a kind of like, like I'm making observations in the place that she lived and like the kind of chaos that comes about and how people sometimes are paying attention to it. And even though there's this like system and disorder that's in place sometimes that people are following it, sometimes it's like out of the window. And yeah, a few different places. I was kind of like, oh, this image is like really stuck with me and I want to include it in the show. And then this idea of like a doubling, or of an A side or a B side or like a version that starts to come out a little bit in some of the other things that I've been making is where this like monochrome degraded noisy version comes about.
G
Noisy version. That's the keyword, isn't it? Noise.
A
Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of like something that's like stayed with me and maybe a bit of a later addition to what I've been working on. I was like, maybe this, maybe this can sit next to everything and it feels like it kind of ties some stuff together for me.
G
And then there's the sound piece.
A
Yeah, and then there's the sound work, which is called Iwaaata.
[extract from the sound piece]
A
Like WAAATA, and I waaata is like a like Patwa phrase or term for like tears or crying. It's also I think in some like reggae musicians, people like I Roy or like I being like a way of identifying oneself and so quite like the idea of talking about, and in some of the music that I've been collected and interested in, there's like a reference to the environment or there's a reference to the river or to the sea or to the land in a really like specific type of like roots reggae music that I've been kind of listening to and interested in. And I think maybe also just because it's from like a generation, that's my parents' generation and my grandparents' generation. So there's a way of people like telling a story of like where they live, how they live and where they're from through making these points of reference. So I was kind of like, yeah, I don't know, using the title as a way of talking about both of those things, like talking about loss and talking about this kind of connection to the land. Or talking about a process of grieving and a connection to the land. So there's like around 20 minutes, I think the total work is. And then there's this handout that you've got, which is like the captions for it, and then you can kind of sit and listen in headphones.
[Second extract of sound piece]
A
There's an intro where I've been like writing myself, but the way that I'd like to record sometimes is using this app called Voloko which is like a vocoder app code I was.
G
I was going to say.
A
And like, sometimes it will just be me with my headphones and like humming in as I'm walking somewhere or like sat somewhere and recording it and just like screen recording that audio and putting it into other stuff. And so the first part of the audio work is like me using this vocoder app to, yeah, like stretch and play with my voice or sometimes put in the mic like all the way in. So you get all of the, like, horrible, clicky, mouthy sounds that some people don't like so much. [laughing] You get a little of that. And then there's some other parts where it's like really far away from me, but you kind of are playing with, well, I'm playing with like, distance, I guess, and like lots of voices at once or trying to play with lots of voices at once and using like, wobbly autotune as a way of exploring that stuff. So that's like one part of the audio. I like making versions of things. A lot of like what I've been interested in, in some of my work is about the ways that -- the ways that like reggae music made copies of or made iterations of like something that could be, I don't know, you could get like 70 versions of different singers on one instrumental at times. And the idea that that's like a collaborative process. So like, yeah --
G
That's a lot isn't it.
A
Yeah. So there's like -- I guess in a way it's similar ish to like a conversation around sampling. But there's, I think, something really interesting about the idea that like if people can get hold of an instrumental and they can record a thing, that there's like all of these voices that are continually contributing to or making another version of the same thing that's maybe like familiar in people's memory, whether it's like a contemporary piece of music or something that's a bit older, so I've been collecting and making lots of versions, some really quickly and just like made on virtual DJing on my laptop flick and then that's it, and they just sit in a folder or some that I'll take a little bit more time with. So there's a combination of things that are like - yeah, bits of music.
G
But it feels like you're doing that to write something. Do you know what I mean? It's like a text because when I yeah --
A
How do you mean? Go on.
G
Like, do you go into it thinking this is what I want to say when you start putting those bits together, or is it that it emerges afterwards?
A
Yeah, I think it emerges afterwards definitely. Like in dub and in the versions of things that happen, I'm like really kind of fascinated by where the echo and the fragmenting of something happens. So like the voice that just like disappears into nothing and starts to re-loop and replay and continue in different ways. Yeah, I'm sure there's other parts in there that I'm not mentioning, but it feels like I'm kind of just pouring lots of things into this big dish and yeah, and stirring it up a little bit and seeing what comes of that.
G
Is it collage?
A
It feels like I think so. I think so. What do you think?
G
I just think it's a text. I still think it counts as 'you've written a text.'
A
Yeah, yeah, I guess so. And the interesting thing is I started -- which isn't something I haven't done before -- but like there's captions that go alongside it. So maybe that's the thing as well, that I'm like, oh, this is also part of that process and trying to find a way of describing what's going on without it being too --
G
[reading the screen] "swallow singing overhead, slower waves rolling onto rocks."
A
And there's some parts that you're really just like, this is what's happening. But I really like that process and how it could be formatted onto screen or how there could be more like creative descriptions that you can start to add without it feeling like it isn't still describing the audio or like it's not an accessible thing, you know?
G
When I said what are we looking at before and you started to describe the scene behind us, I was like, wow, he's really good at this. [laughing] I find it so hard to describe what I'm looking at? Which is so stupid because like, we should all be able to describe the things we recognise. But it's like, as soon as you like -- I don't know how to illustrate with words what you've done to the discs that look like records. Do you know what I mean? Because it looks like the scribbles that kids do under the desks at school, and then also like some things were accidental.
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
G
Just hard to describe it.
A
Oh, no, I feel like that's quite accurate though. [laughing] I like those couple of references because of like the way the metal picks stuff up as well. I'm just like, oh, that's a mark. Let's sediment that mark and then continue it. Do you know what I mean? Or let's like make it feel like it's set somehow. I really like that because I think there's like photographs that I was seeing of like 7 inch reggae records that people would like scribble on. So they'd like say this is mine and I've got some of my granddad's -- just on the label.
G
Oh, I was going to say.
A
His initial -- your face! You were like, they do what?!
G
They did what?
A
Yeah, I've got some of like my granddad's records where he just put his initial on the like centre label part and then when someone else takes it, they'll like, OK -- do you know what I mean? So some of those I think were a point of reference as well.
G
And you've made records before.
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
G
This is like a dud.
A
Exactly.
G
This hasn't got any grooves in it.
A
I do want to listen to it, but I --
G
You don't want to mess the needle, would it mess up?
A
I think it might just make more scratches on the etching plate and also, I don't know how well it how interesting it would sound, to be honest, but yeah.
[camera winding sound, back in the studio]
I think it was at the end of episode 3 of Art Dates when me and Sebastián Espejo were walking to get some lunch. I don't know if this audio actually made it into the episode or not because I do remember that we were walking along Euston Rd. and it was horrendous. It was horrendous to be there but also horrendous to listen back to in these headphones. But he was telling me about like, his experience of doing TURPS art school and how one of the tutors asked the students at the beginning of every, like, group crit to just start off by describing what it is they could see. And Sebastián said that that'd really left an impression on him because, yeah, like, I suppose as a critic, I think I experience an artwork, go home, think about it later, and then to start off writing a review, I will often try and describe what I've just seen, but it's like the description part happens so much after the fact. I never actually just stand in front of something and try and figure out like what it is or what it means to me, gauge how fluent I am in what type of artwork this actually is. So yeah, I think that exercise of just like starting off by describing something can be quite transformative, let's say. Or I also imagine that like people who don't recognise anything in an artwork, don't understand its language, find that to be like part of the experience. Or maybe that's what they look for. They don't want recognition, they want something that's completely new. They want discovery.
[camera shutter sound, back on the date]
G
Tell me about these, because yeah, it's not etchings, is it?
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And these were kind of corresponding to the sound a little bit more. So I'd be listening to things and at one point I was describing them as scores, but they weren't really things to be played. They were just like corresponding to a voice that was disintegrating, or a particular like sound that was coming up in some of the music that I was listening to, which is again, a lot of like reggae and dub music, instrumental based versions. But there's something that feels a little bit more controlled about when we think compared to what the records are.
G
Do you think like, yeah, that physical side is something you want to carry on with?
A
Yeah, I think so. Well, I've made the prints and I've got the prints that I've been making from these. But there's something about looking at these plates that I'm like, oh, there's -- I don't know, there's something really like -- more interesting for me about like the metal and the fact that you kind of have to contort yourself around a little bit at times, depending on the light that they're in or they're not really fully legible at first. There's something in all of that that I'm like, yeah, a bit more excited about.
G
I see what you mean.
A
But I like, I like looking at these or holding these as well. Actually, they're like a nice holdable size.
G
Feels like it's a slightly different scale from the rest of what you've done and also like maybe the thing that's most just you because everything else is like using materials from other stuff, or you take a picture of something, or it's a found object or you're using like a familiar scene with the record players.This is like unfamiliar to me, these actions. But that's interesting.
A
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that they are like..?
G
Because it's abstract.
A
They don't really depict or like have anything they can cling onto.
G
It's got nothing to do with anything in a way for me until you say that maybe it's a score. But nah, it doesn't feel like the right word. Yeah, it's nice. It just feels different. This whole atmosphere, this little collection. Feel like I know you better?
A
Yeah, OK, that's cool. I -- maybe it's a bit of a thing that I'm like oh, but I've been exploring a bit and not sure of where and how it sits in relation to other parts of what I've been doing.
G
Was there like a key moment in the MA where it was like a lecture or someone told you to read something, but like a thing where you're like, oh, I'm so glad that that bit happened because this, this, you know, helped move me forward into the future?
A
That's a good question. There's like a -- like the equivalent to or a module called Critical Discourses where we were kind of asked to submit 3x 30 minute audio essays rather than writing a thesis or dissertation, which was still that we'd like, you know, be researching and we'd still include references and citations or whatever, but just changing the form to something that was like audio and about like speaking.
G
I saw that done recently on the Sound Art course in London College of Communication and actually like in their degree show, there was just the screen where you could like put headphones on and listen to all of the dissertations.
A
Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know they'd done that.
G
What did you do?
A
So I wrote about -- or the title was 'From Dub to the Devil Mix,' which was about the Devil Mix instrumentals in grime.
G
What's the devil mix?
A
[Laughing] The Devil mix was and is a like instrumental version of like grime, so like the music that I grew up with in like the early 2000s, but then the producer Wiley started making devil mixes, which were like no drums, no percussion and just these kind of like weightless, melodic, bassy, synthy like productions.
[extract of a devil mix]
And I was kind of like, oh man, this is really interesting because in a way that's like what dub and the B side was to reggae music, more popular reggae music at that point in the 70s, eighties -- so there's this like lineage of people that are like musicians, but also exploring this kind of thing that plays with like a popular music form and like pulls it apart and really like stretches it out.
G
And that's what you like.
A
And that's what I really like.
G
You like it when stuff gets pulled out.
A
Yeahhh. That kind of like decon-- all of that, like falling away is something I'm really interested in.
But the thesis bit was about the ways that that music is and was, I don't want to say policed, but the ways that it kind of like went below the radar and found ways to kind of be shared and be circulating that. Yeah, I don't know. It was about what there was negate in a single ownership, so it was that everyone could kind of like feel a part of or contribute to. But that there's this sort of like spiritual and religious connotation with them as well that happens in a lot of the reggae music.
G
Who named it?
A
Wiley named it the Devil the Devil Mix, but there's this interview that he talks about thinking that he brought a curse on himself because he crashed his car when he was, like, coming to drop some of the records off. So he says that, yeah, he should have named it the bass mix or the Angel mix or the Heaven mix or something else, which I'm like, oh, this is, yeah...
G
I love stuff like that.
A
It's like there's all this weird lore that he, like, kind of like cites and talks about. But yeah, I think it's got a really interesting connection to, like, religion and spirituality within, like, histories of black music that. But yeah, I mean, like to go back to what you were saying was the changing moment, I think that just made those two things solidify in an interesting way. So there's some of that like reference to, I don't want to say like the pulling apart or the falling apart, but whatever's going on in both of those genres is like now finding its way into like some of that in the visual bit and some of that in the sound bit and maybe some of that in what I'm making as well. I think I'd like to put stuff towards a little bit more.
G
It tracks I think.
[camera sound, back in the studio]
Don't forget you can see photos on the website artdates.co.uk if you want to see what it is me and Ashley are looking at. There were 10 people in this exhibition. I think I got some pictures of a few different artworks and they'll all be listed on the website. I've been taking a film camera with me on all these dates, so thank you to the Film Lab 'Take it easy' for developing all of that millions and millions of half frame footage for free. They're really helping to support this stupid project that no one asked me to do, and they've also given a code ARTDATE10 for 10% off film development. If you also like to take 100 million half frame photos on a film camera, get some scans back, digital scans and also prints that you can put in a photo album. Thank you Take it easy, and that code is ARTDATE10. There's a few photos in there, I believe of work by Georgia Dove whose stuff we've really liked --
[back on the date]
A
I love these so much. In fact, ah no, it's because she'd moved them -- There was one out the front on the landing but think she's just taking a photograph of it at the moment. But it's got like a cut out, like a seaside pop your face in. But I really love these. I really really like these.
G
Yeah, these are so satisfying. I saw there was some airbrushing in the BA one last year I think.
A
Yeah, yeah, there was.
G
I still just feel like I'm always surprised that I don't see it more.
A
Yeah, you're right. There's something so satisfying. And even just seeing how like Georgia makes them, she's like crouched in a corner with this like little -- there's something really --
G
I think I'd be terrible at it.
A
There's like a precision to it that I'm not about at all.
G
I just really like this one in the middle. So just for the listeners, these are like 3 almost like theatre-esque type thing, like props that you'd put on a stage to decorate a scene where there were some Dragons and it's all black and white and airbrushed, but quite like unusual positions. So one of them's got like its hands on its knees and one of them's like pointing. And the other ones like its neck is so long that it's like almost, I don't know, it's like an L shape and its head is on the floor, but the rest of this body like can't be bothered moving or something. And then what's this one facing it?
A
Like a little baby.
G
Just like a little baby behind, like a big leaf for its own wings or something. Yeah, these are great. Oh, there's another one, and that one's got, like, a mad belly button. Yeah, these are good.
[back in the studio]
G
And then we also saw paintings by Sam Waiting.
[back on the date]
G
This is a funny collection of imagery.
A
Isn't it? This is Sam who is a tattooist and runs a tattoo studio.
G
That makes sense.
A
And a painter as well. And he started to look at the, like, different depictions and representations of the tiger and tigers that are like, anatomically inaccurate or that have been like, appropriated and how that's changed and moved and shifted in different, like, tattooing cultures and traditions.
G
Have you got any tattoos?
A
Yeah, I have. I've got a tattoo that I got on my forearm that says 'everything happens for a reason' in Icelandic.
G
In Icelandic?
A
Because at the time of getting it, I was like, I really like Sigur Rós. [laughing] And someone was like, wait, doesn't Jónsi talk his own language? Isn't it like a made-up gobbledygook?
G
Wait, I need to take a picture of this. Come here.
A
So I quite like the earnest 'let's get there.'
G
OK, let me get, let me get this right. Put -- tilt it down a little bit. Yeah, OK.
[camera sound, back in the studio]
G
We later headed out onto the balcony on the top of the building.
[back on the date]
A
Onto the roof.
[seagull sounds]
G
Oh, that's what I needed. So hot in there.
A
Is a bit stuffy, yeah.
G
We can't get trapped on the roof.
A
Maybe it's not been released yet, but when the hawk is up, yeah, it's like the seagulls are sending warnings to their mates, so it just gets really, really loud and you'll know when it's about.
[in the studio]
G
And we spoke about this and about that.
[back on the date]
G
What was what was the last thing you saw that was like it left an impression?
A
Oh, I went to the Hurvin Anderson show at Tate Britain a few months back.
G
Oh, I haven't been and I'm so jealous! Was it amazing?
A
Which I really loved. Really, really, really loved. I like, I wouldn't necessarily say I was a big fan of like paintings necessarily, but I just really love how like the compositions and how everything put together in his work -- you've got like a frame in a frame in a frame, especially in some of the like larger works of his in that show.
G
I would buy the book I think.
A
Yeah. So I really loved seeing that. I can't think of this anything that I've been to since then.
G
Or a film or someone's album that came out recently, not an exhibition.
A
It's not really new.
G
What is it?
A
I guess it is new, it came out last year, but it's Jim Legxacy's album, which is called Black British Music (2025). And it's so good.
G
What's good about it?
A
Just like, just the way that everything's put together, the production in it is like incredible. He's got like -- maybe it's not part of the album, but like the music videos and how they're made are like a throwback to naughties music channels and like seeing things on Channel U and MTV base. He's, I don't know, he's a bit of a, it feels like he's a bit of a wizard in just how he like weaves these different sounds together. So like one of them's like, I don't know, like got a sort of like Afro Beatsy kind of swing to it. And then another could be like track four on an Avril Lavigne album or something. It's like him singing and then him rapping and then him with collaboration. It's just like that's like, yeah, that's something that I'd come back to a lot -- at least once a month, I think.
[back in the studio]
G
And then I had to end the episode in the way that I always end it --
[back on the date]
G
One of the one of the things on the episodes on our dates is at the end of it asking each person I interview, where do you want to send people after they've finished the episode? Do you want to go to that album you mentioned or do you want, is it a video online, a website, a podcast? Where do you want to send people if you've got, you know, a little bit of power?
A
Yeah, I would send people to -- my temptation is to say another podcast, which is a football podcast, but that's put together in such a brilliant way because I think there's like a --
G
What is it?
A
It's called Stadio and it's by Ryan Hunn and Musa Okwonga and I kind of know both of their work from other things. So like Ryan through -- not personally know them -- but like Ryan Hunn through music and Musa through a book that he wrote a couple of years back called 'In the end it was all about love.' And then I came across them sharing the same like visuals, like, oh, what is this? But they're like reviewing and talking about weekly updates in football.
G
This is what I need.
A
At the end of each episode they like play out on a song. So there's like a whole music playlist as well, but they do it in a really like, I don't know -- I listen to a lot of football content, but this is done in a particular kind of, particularly unique way, I think because they, I don't know, they talk about the like other stuff that's outside of a sport as well, the kind of like cultural impact of stuff, the political kind of like context of what's going on. It's like really, really well-rounded and insightful and I love it.
G
This is perfect timing, yeah.
A
Yeah, I'd say that.
G
Yeah, yeah. OK, perfect. Because I've gone from not thinking about football since I was like aged 13 to becoming like -- like I'm doing this interview in a football shirt. The World Cup changed me. I think I watched them almost every match.
A
Oh man, I love that.
G
Every match. Were you staying up all night watching stuff?
A
There was a point where I was like, I can't, it's 2AM, I can't stretch it. But at some point I was like, 'we're here, I'm invested, we're here.' But yeah, their rundowns and their recent episodes of all the World Cups are, like, brilliant. You'll love it.
G
It's funny, like I was watching a match with Michael and he was saying, like, isn't it mad that as soon as this match ends, you get to watch like the pundits and you get to have like a breakdown. But you don't get that at the end of the film. Or an episode of EastEnders. Maybe we need it.
A
A panel, live, straight up.
G
Wayne Rooney after everything.
A
I loved his analysis of the half time final. Just like I love these artists, but 'it was crap. Not for me.'
G
I feel dangerously about Wayne Rooney at this point because I'm like, I fear I agreed with every single thing he said for six weeks and is this how some people feel about politicians? I was like, this is worrying me. [laughing]
A
This is the hill I will die on with no qualms. That's funny, I'm just thinking about panel discussion responses to everything.
G
Everything please.
A
Live in the studio with a green screen.
G
Because don't you feel like there was a point in time where things like Twitter became that in a way where whatever was happening, Love Island, I don't know, whatever, you could then have the debrief.
Yeah, it was a bit of a constellation. It didn't really work in the same way, but there were, like meme accounts and there were very funny people online who always had a good hot take, or whatever, and all that's dead. So where do we go now?
A
And then whatshisface took it over.
G
Yeah, but also like we're also alone when we're having these experiences that I'm just like, I just, yeah, I just miss it now.
A
Have you ever done or do you ever do watchalongs? I know I haven't. But I remember in lockdown, it was a thing, wasn't it?
G
Me and my mate -- I say no, but me and my mate Tayyab Amin had something that we called Sync Watch Party where we made playlists of good YouTube videos and we put them in this like special website that would play the playlist, but there was a chat box next to it. So we would just tell people at like 6:00 today we're doing a Sync watch party. So that felt like that felt like the closest equivalent. And it was really special because it was it was deep in lockdown.
A
I love that. I love that. When I was racking my brains for where to send people, I was trying to think of another YouTube thing because that's the other place that I feel like I spend a lot of time of just like, yeah, a lot of hours lost in that. So that sounds brilliant.
G
So do I. What are you watching on YouTube tomorrow? What's the weirdest thing?
A
Oh, man, it's not really that weird, but it's like American people responding to British music. 'God, didn't know it was this good. Where have they been hiding? What's happening?' Like, come on.
G
What music?
A
Like mostly rap music, mostly like rap and hip hop music. 'Like wow, the UK really, they're really good.'
Like, yeah, that's been happening for a bit. So that and also like children showing their parents music that they listen to, which is like another -- yeah, mostly music related stuff.
G
I do like that.
A
Because they're kind of sceptical, yeah. And then they get one over at some.
G
There's that dad-son combo. I started watching their videos when he showed his dad Lana Del Rey for the first time, and his dad was just in tears, and was like, by the end of the episode was like 'I think I'm in love with this woman'. And now every time Lana Del Rey releases a new album, he's like 30 seconds in, the tears just start. He's like, I don't know what it is. It's just her voice.
A
There's something about it where I'm like, I don't know, I wouldn't have had myself down as like sitting through and watching that kind of stuff, but --
G
But it's the pundits again. It's punditry.
A
It's that response to something. It's like a version of Gogglebox, isn't it? Like just reviewing a thing live as you're being presented with it.
G
The full album.
A
But it's yeah, but it's an hour and a bit.
G
I'm in. This is also what I watch. I need to start sending you music videos.
A
Yeah, please, please, please, please, please.
[back in the studio]
G
I'm going to leave it at that. Thank you Ashley Holmes for going on date #5. Remember, you can see photos from this date and the transcription on artdates.co.uk.
And I'll just end this episode by saying that there's no schedule with this stuff, obviously, like it happens as and when I want it to. Yeah, I sort of do want it to be at the pace that like, film photography happens at. But I'm about to head to Chile for a month where I'm going to be doing some research for that book that I am writing. And I'm while I'm there, I'm going to be recording a bunch of these episodes. So yeah, I'm going to prioritize the book stuff. That's what I'm actually going for. But I am excited to use this format of the art dates episodes as a yeah, like an excuse to get to know people seriously. So different when you like try and interview a potential friend. But I'm going to get to do what I wanted from the outset of these episodes, which is to create souvenirs for my own life. So that's making me feel very good inside. I'm excited. I'll see you in a few months with loads of episodes and we can all find out what it's like to be a creative person in Chile. So I'll see you soon. Nos vemos. Ciao. Adiós. [jingle].