-> scroll down for transcript
I was carrying a Pentax 17 with Kodak Ultramax 400
Photos developed at Photolab in Santiago
Alan’s instagram is here
Alan wanted you to go here after the episode
Gabrielle de la Puente
And we're on.
Alan Ashworth-Muñoz
Oh, I felt something.
Gabrielle
Perfect. Okay. Yeah. It's weird hearing you speak English because your accent is, like, so southern (laughing)
Alan
Yeah, well it's the same with you because I was like -- I literally just got so used to you speaking Spanish, I was just like, oh, yeah, I forgot you speak English as well (laughing)
Gabrielle
Oh I kind of love that.
Alan
But I was also like, oh yeah, because you obviously grew up in Liverpool, so you got a Liverpudlian accent, and my head was just there like what???
[jingle]
Gabrielle
Welcome to the Art Dates podcast. My name is Gabrielle de la Puente and this is a podcast where I visit exhibitions with interesting people, except today's episode is not an exhibition, but it is an interesting person. I am about to start editing and sharing these seven episodes that I filmed while I was in Chile for the month of September. The first one's like, for me, a really special one. I also it feels a bit like destiny or something. So we're gonna be speaking to Alan Ashworth-Muñoz, an artist that I had only just discovered like a few days before I ended up going on this art date with him. My job as a critic is that, you know, I publish stuff on a website called The White Pube. But on top of that, we give out this monthly grant to working class artists. And so September was coming up and it was like the week before, and I'm going through millions and millions of emails. We maybe get like 5 to 10 applications a day. And then I see these paintings and I'm like, oh my god, because they were like blocky, colourful paintings that had some kind of landscape going on but also there was a figure, and maybe the figure was dressed in something that I would associate with, like, medieval England. And it's like the image is there, but it's like hard to hold onto, like it sort of goes in and out, because of the way he plays with shapes. It feels like -- it feels like all the paintings have like ribbons going through them, and you're sort of like waiting for everything to settle down. Needless to say, I was a fan. I send them an email to offer him the grant, and then to also ask if he can send us some images that we can put on The White Pube homepage for the month of September. He sends an email back and he's like, 'oh, I can't do that. I'm actually away from home at the moment. I'm in Santiago.' And I was like, wait, what? Because this is like 2 or 3 days before I'm due to fly. And I'm like, well, we've got to meet. Fast forward to me four days into my trip to Chile, feeling like happy and relaxed, but also like super out of sorts because -- I know it sounds stupid and like a bit trite -- but when I arrived at in Santiago, British Airways turned round and said, oh by the way, we didn't bring a single suitcase on this flight. So I was just like -- I just felt like I was floating for a few days, and it wouldn't come for a week. And then there was this one Monday where I was like, I'm gonna go and see what the Palestinian quarter's like in Santiago, and I decided to text Alan and said, you know, if you're about do you wanna come for lunch? He texted me back saying, oh, I'm actually with my cousins at the moment. Is it okay if I bring them? We end up spending the whole day together. Me, Alan, Jorge and Carlos. It feels like I'm hanging out with my own cousins and they, like, just really took me under their wing. Ended up being one of my favourite days of the entire trip. But obviously we've spoken the whole day in Spanish, and I was like, hmm, Alan, do you want to meet up again in a few days and we can record an interview in English, and then I can ask him about all these paintings and oil pastels. So let's go on that date.
*
Gabrielle
Where's the best spot on the funicular?
Alan
I mean, I guess it would be that one there.
Gabrielle
Oh, yeah. True.
Alan
I mean, you'll get a good view nonetheless. Gracias. It's more the fact that you can't see the top that makes it more -- if I could see the top, then that would make it less stressful to look at.
Gabrielle
I know what you mean.
Alan
Because it's like it's the this endless, like, I guess, like -- oh, perdón.
Gabrielle
Wow. This is such a good view.
Alan
I've never done it from this end.
Gabrielle
My ears just popped. Yeah.
[Sound of rumbling]
Alan
Look at the mountains up there,
Gabrielle
Oh my God, every time I see them, I feel like, really, like cheesy for being like, wow.
Alan
I mean, they are incredible. I like, I went back to my old school, the primary school I went to and you know, like you always look at it -- you know, you look at stuff and then when you look at it from the different perspective of being an adult, I looked at it again and I was like, oh, I didn't realise there was the mountains right behind it. And you were like, oh yeah, that's constantly obviously there. But back home we just don't really -- unless you live up in the peaks or, or like in a Lake District, you don't really have that sort of scenery.
Gabrielle
No, you don't at all. I try and describe that to me teacher all the time. Like, I just don't have vistas. I don't -- I don't see anything. There's nothing I want to look at in a way. And that's so sad. And also like, what does that do to artists if there's nothing to look at?
Alan
I guess it just makes you focus on different -- I guess it makes you focus on different things. The things that that are closer. I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I did mainly focused on like stuff that's really close to my vision.
Gabrielle
And have you got bad vision?
Alan
Errrr, yeah, I guess. If these come off, I'm like -- shapes.
Gabrielle
(laughing) So am I. Do you know what number prescription you are?
Alan
Minus two and minus two point five, so it's not that bad.
Gabrielle
Ay, that's nothing. I'm minus four point five.
Alan
Really? What level of blur is that?
Gabrielle
Just like bad. Just like really fucking annoying.
(dinging)
Alan
Gracias.
Gabrielle
Gracias.
Gabrielle
Nice. That was fun.
Alan
So, yeah, now we're seeing it from, like, the ant view. I always find it like, you know, that this connection where you see everyone really tiny, in my head, I'm like, oh, I could run there really fast. But I was like, perception of, like, distance and everything. And when I was in the Atacama, perception of distance was so odd there.
Gabrielle
Was it?
Alan
I saw that there was like a town that called San Pedro. And we stayed in like, it's almost like -- it felt like an oasis away from it, like in the desert. Like another small town. And you go, you step away from it and you're covered in, like, trees and bushes and stuff, and then it's just desert and I see the town which has got trees as well in the distance. And I'm like oh that must be like half an hour. I looked it up, it was like two hour walk. And I was like what?! And even if you tried to get close to the mountains they'll just stay the same size. Even if you've been like two hours, you'll be like, no, they're still the same size. And in my head I'm like, no, I can get there really quick.
Gabrielle
That just made my like, heart beat a bit fast, you know, just from like, fear. Because imagine you got lost there and you're like, oh, I need to head that way. But you walk forever and it doesn't move and it doesn't get closer. That sounds scary.
Alan
It's a really nice it's a really odd kind of feeling.
Gabrielle
I don't think I've ever felt that.
[camera clicking sound]
(back in the studio)
You can see film photos from this date on artdates.co.uk, and you can also get the transcription there as well, if you so desire. There was a bit of a theme with this conversation that ended up sticking with me like the whole time I was in Chile. I think I met Alan on like the fourth day of the whole month I was going to be there, and it really helped me in what I wanted to pay attention to while I was there. So like, yeah, there was a theme to do with scale in, in what we spoke about now and then later on in the conversation. And, you know, the way a place is laid out, the way it makes you feel. It feels really relevant to the type of stuff he makes, but also hugely relevant to like the date we were on, because instead of going to an exhibition space, we were getting the funicular up to the top of the hill and then walking our way down, all the while you can see the Andes mountains in the distance, snow-capped under this bright blue sky. It felt so different from any kind of place I'd ever been except maybe Hong Kong with the skyscrapers. And we got into this conversation about like, you know, why does he not live here? You know, you don't see that immediate sublime in your everyday life in London. He started to reflect a little bit on, you know, what it was like back in the day when he still lived in Chile.
*
Alan
Before that, Santiago was like really flat. So it's just like these, like skyscrapers are just like whoosh. There's so many, whereas like, I used to remember looking out of the window upstairs and like just seeing like -- it's just flat. So you see only the spires of the churches. They were like the, I guess the, the main focal points. And at night they would be lit up. So you'd be able to like, you know, see that as that was your view, you know?
*
Gabrielle (back in the studio)
And I know I was only there for a month, but all I said the entire month was, I think I hate England, and everyone would look at me and be like, why? Like excited, because you're not supposed to hate England, but I think I hate England.
(back on the date)
Gabrielle
Yeah, it's just something about like being in a place where travel and food is cheaper than it is in England that makes you feel so angry. Like happy, but angry and, like, a bit cheated.
Alan
Yeah, absolutely.
Gabrielle
It just feels -- do you know what it is? It's like what I'm realising this week again, happens every time I leave the country and come back, like in the prices of those things being as high as they are in England, the culture of it just stops because we don't really have that big of a culture of eating out all the time, every day for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Grabbing snacks off the side of the road.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Traveling around the country for fun.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Just doesn't happen.
Alan
That's so true. And if you do do it, the only way that I found that's the easiest way to achieve it, is either like you go with all your mates in one car and you'll chip in with petrol, but it's not like you could be like, hey, I'm gonna have a weekend away here, and the train might cost you, like it's 35 pounds to go, what, an hour?
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Alan
And you could probably buy a flight to Dublin for that price.
Gabrielle
Exactly.
Alan
It just makes like -- it doesn't give you the chance to explore. Have that comfort, like, I guess, the comfort or the freedom to really explore like the UK in general.
Gabrielle
I feel like it just makes your life smaller.
Alan
Oh, definitely.
Gabrielle
But I mean, not with the food stuff as well. Like.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
You live in your house, you eat in your house, you don't see anyone.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
All this stuff -- just feel cheated.
Alan
Yeah. Because, I mean, I haven't used the railway. I don't really use it that often. Yeah. And I wish I could use it more.
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Alan
But it's purely because it's just like, this is just --
Gabrielle
Like 1 million pounds.
Alan
Yeah. It was like 200 pounds to go to Scotland.
Gabrielle
Yeah. And yet the trains are full, so people like do have money. I don't think they do, but they do.
Alan
I think it's more like, it's very like -- 'well I guess that's...' you know, it's that whole stiff upper lip.
Gabrielle
It's very English.
Alan
It is so English you'll be like, oh, and then you'll still pay for it. So I'm like, so you're still paying into it, you know?
Gabrielle
Yeah. And then there was I would think of like the protests in Chile a few years ago when the bus prices went up.
Alan
Yeah. I mean, that was a whole, like catalyst.
Gabrielle (back in the studio)
We're gonna get into what happened properly in the next episode, but I'll just quickly say that the Estallido Social was a series of protests at the end of 2019, beginning of 2020 that all kicked off because there was a planned rise in the cost of getting on the metro. And students said nope and they started like a campaign to, you know, skip the barriers, jump over the barriers, which reminds me a lot of the current movement in France with students leading the charge. But essentially that escalated in Chile until there were, yeah, massive, massive protests of like a million people, everyone coming together to protest and say that, you know, this cost of living crisis is now out of control. It's harmful. We reject it. We want to be able to afford to live here and we're going to put our foot down. But yeah, we'll get into that properly on the next episode with the next artist.
*
Gabrielle
Can you describe what we're seeing for the podcast.
Alan
So we're at Cerro San Cristobal so we're seeing, at the top of it, the Virgin Mary overlooking Santiago. It is a bit overcast. Sometimes it depends on the weather, like in the mornings if it rains, it clears up. So you can kind of see the mountains like those over there much more clearly. And I mean, to describe those mountains, it's just like you feel like they just keep going up and up.
Gabrielle
So obviously I already asked you this the other day, but for the podcast's sake, why did you leave Chile?
Alan
So I was living with my mum, my grandparents and my auntie. And once in a while, like other family members, if they were changing houses, they'd obviously welcome to stay. So it was a very busy, busy home. And my stepdad, who's an Englishman, was living two streets down teaching English and it was a rainy day and my mom didn't have an umbrella, and he did, so he offered his umbrella.
Gabrielle
So cute.
Alan
And that's kind of the beginning of that, really. And, it was like a couple of years and, and then one day, he was like, I'm gonna take you to England. And obviously at the time, I didn't know the concept of what that was. As I described to you, I thought it was like, almost like a like a game or like some kind of visual -- like I visualized it as black with green squares. I just assumed that that was some kind of -- because it sounded weird, like 'England'. That word is strange.
Gabrielle
It's very strange to Spanish.
Alan
And I also remember as well that I thought my perception of the whole world was like, well, do they speak Spanish there?
Gabrielle
You know, because why wouldn't they?
Alan
Why wouldn't they? Exactly. And, yeah, my life changed quite dramatically.
Gabrielle
You were six did you say?
Alan
I was six years old, yeah. And I remember the day I left because it was a really beautiful blue sky. Got taken to -- got taken to the airport and waved my family off. And, I still didn't really realise what essentially what was happening. It was exciting going on the plane. So you know, you don't really think about that. But when I arrived in England, I remember the sky being gray (laughing) and I was like --
Gabrielle
Because you would have like flipped seasons, wouldn't you? You would have gone from what, like, summer to --
Alan
Summer to winter. And it was like gray and everything was different. The smells, you know, the food, the tastes are. Remember tasting orange juice, which I thought was like freshly squeezed, or I don't know, I was just used to a particular flavour. And I remember trying it, and it was like -- I still remember that taste. And I haven't had it since. I don't think that brand exists anymore, but I just remember being a bit like, oh, I don't like this. It's definitely quite surreal and it definitely would say impacted a part of my upbringing. But also that's the other side of it. I remember growing up here really vividly. In regards to like my art and stuff that's kind of where it started because.
Gabrielle
Those six years?
Alan
Yeah, I mean, like my mum was really good at drawing where she is. Yeah, she was really good at drawing.
Gabrielle
And what would she draw?
Alan
Just stuff for like, you know, to make the room look nicer, you know? You know, just to make it look like a children's room.
Gabrielle
In colour?
Alan
In colour, yeah. She had a -- there was a particular -- she did a design of like a baby. And it was like with this kind of orange card and it was really like simple but actually, like, technically really beautiful. And I think she still has it somewhere folded up. And a lot of my family were also quite creative in their own way and were like.
Gabrielle
Like what? What were they doing?
Alan
A lot of them like musically, but they also like drew as well and did art themselves, but never took it any further than that. I just felt that in the family.
Gabrielle
That's important though.
Alan
It was really important. And the way they are and the way they speak and the way they say things and the, you know, growing up like we were lucky enough that my grandad bought some land near the coast in a place called Adabo. And like there, you know, we used to have like, campfires and tell stories and because we didn't have a TV or anything, it was like that. It was like conversation. And because it was a lot of us, it was like the excitement of going to that place was incredible. There was also like, the scent, when you get to that place as like, an aroma of eucalyptus because it was also -- it was like a minty fresh, with a sea air coming through. And it was a really exciting, and it still is, an exciting place to go. And we were surrounded by, like, forests and like, and canyons.
Gabrielle
So then you moved to England and you like, you draw? You draw things?
Alan
Yeah. So when I started to really when I noticed I was really getting into it was when I was doing history because I think as a distraction, because I found it really difficult to be there. My dad would take me to see castles as like a thing to do in the weekends. And then it became the fascination of these structures. I was like, wow, what's this? The curiosity. And then from that, I would just be like drawing medieval things or like, you know, things inspired by history. I remember drawing like Romans or like Egyptians and finding it all, like this whole new world that was, like, fascinating and interesting and constantly kind of developing that. And it's and it's always like just been there, that impulse to like, you know, draw things.
Gabrielle
Because the stuff you do now still has got that historical end to it.
Alan
Definitely. It's definitely got --
Gabrielle
Like jesters and things.
Alan
Yeah. Theatrical as well. Yeah. I felt like, the way that, I remember coming back after being away for a long time here and I, I remember sitting in the garden in the house, and I hadn't seen my uncle a long time, but the way he spoke was really, like, really expressionist, that I stopped hearing Spanish. I just couldn't hear, like, the accent. I couldn't understand him anymore. So I was just watching him speak and the way like they express themselves was very like, oh, you know, and very like they touch you a lot, but it's very -- and then him talking to my auntie, just like, oh, like, you know. It's really theatrical.
Gabrielle
Hand gestures, yeah, yeah.
Alan
And I've always, like I've always found that quite interesting. I always thought like incorporating the movement almost there. It was quite like fluid and elongated.
Gabrielle
Dance
Alan
Dance-y, yeah.
Gabrielle
And not very English.
Alan
Well, it's, it's funny because like, a lot of it is inspired because I'm there -- a lot of is inspired by England -- but when people see it, they see here. I'm like, yeah. 'This is like -- this reminds me of like South America.' Or people get that perception? I think my teacher did say to me at one point. Have you ever thought about doing like, fashion or stuff like that? I wasn't particularly interested but I did like dressing them up, you know, it was kind of like, like I created something for this world that I'd built up for myself.
Gabrielle
It's like a bit punch and Judy. Yeah.
Alan
But I see it moving. I don't see them static. I see them like -- so then I don't like, perceive it as like it being like flat almost because sometimes it does come out as very flat. But when I visualise a lot of the stuff, it's very like -- there's a lot of movement in it and there's like -- I can see, like I could hear like the wind or I can hear the sounds.
Gabrielle
It's almost like, like the still in an animation or something?
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
I'm thinking of the garlic one because that's the one I was -- that's the one that got me. Like feels like in the middle of a march across the screen or the stage.
[camera sounds]
Alan
What things have you been enjoying about Santiago?
Gabrielle
Oh, okay. The amount of shopping arcades.
[church bells]
Alan
Oh, yeah.
Gabrielle
Yeah. And, like, so shopping arcades, but also the people selling stuff on the side of the road, the ferias and like, markets and how there just feels like there's something going on everywhere you look. Keep having this memory come back to me of every Saturday morning I used to go into Liverpool City Centre with me Nan, and we would go into this shopping precinct upstairs, there was a market, and then it was like, you know, rows and rows of people selling mop heads, bin bags, like bags, shoes, whatever, you know, like just piles of this stuff. And then she would go and get a haircut and I'll just walk up and down these aisles and like that market's closed down it now. Most high streets in the fall are just like falling apart because of the internet. People, like, still come to town but there's nothing to do. So then it's just like this...
Alan
It's created this kind of void I guess.
Gabrielle
Yeah, like a proper void. And then I come here and there are still shops for, like, really specific things. Like the taps for the sink.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
And I'm like wait, what? I just keep getting this feeling of like, well that specificity isn't allowed in England anymore because everyone wants next day delivery. And I'm guessing, but it feels to me like, obviously people can get next day delivery here, but like they would rather go outside and participate in the culture of being outside with other people and eating and buying things? But yeah, that's my Santiago joy. Like I don't know why everything's still open. (laughing)
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
In a weird way.
Alan
Back home, we're used to, as you were saying, like getting everything delivered to us. Yeah, we've been accustomed to it now, so it's like --
Gabrielle
But is it? But that's what I'm saying. Like, do you think it's 'oh, we've got used to it now' or do you think, like, we never had enough of that culture in the first place in England to reject any other option, so it was just like inevitable? Or am I just being like, really pessimistic and like, people-hating or something? I just genuinely -- there's something about England where people just keep to themselves.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
And like even when you don't want to, you still do.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Whereas there's a -- I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if I'm just having a really unique experience. But the hospitality I have felt in the past few days from people I was due to meet, but also like, you know, your cousins turning up and just being like, well, you're with us now for the day.
Alan
Yeah (laughing)
Gabrielle
Or I was walking down the street when the march was happening on Sunday. I don't know if you saw it, and there were these giant explosions. And I kind of turned to the guy next and I was like, what was that? Because I just thought it was gunshots. And he was like, oh, it's fireworks. Like, don't worry about it. And he said, you know, what are you doing in Chile? And I explained and he was like, oh, well, I work in the offices of the Supreme Court. This is my name. You know, if you ever need anything, you know, while you're here, just get in touch, come to the office, ask for me. And I was like, I literally went, why are you giving me a name? Like, it just took me a second, and he went, because I'm an honest person. You know, if you need anything, that's where I am. And I was like, wait, what? (laughing) That just literally, categorically would not happen in England.
Alan
No, I know that's so true. It really wouldn't (laughing). I wonder if -- yeah, I don't really know like -- like when I was telling you that story of the postman that --
Gabrielle
Oh yeah. Repeat it for the listeners.
Alan
My whole life as well, was having the postman round around the house for lunch, like growing up here and just coming around and like always being there. Obviously we were always guaranteed to get our post. But my nan would never, ever not let anyone not have a plate of food. Guaranteed. Whoever it was, she was -- my aunties saying growing up because it was such a big family, she was saying they'd always be inviting people around and Nan would always be like, yes, come in, you know, I'll feed you. And there was always that kind of strong element of that hospitality --
Gabrielle
Kind of amazing.
Alan
-- that's like not just, you know, not just our family. Like, it seems like the whole country's like that.
[Camera sound]
Gabrielle
When you make art and you have like some of these like, historical slants to some of the imagery that you're using, do you ever go into Chilean history, Latin American history?
Alan
I -- yes, I have, I have done but very little. And there's been a part of me that really wants to explore it, but I want to do it in a way that I'm really happy with it. So I still haven't really. I've done a few things, but not much when I went to the residency La Wayaka. La Wayaka current in the Atacama. That was like -- that was the door that was opened and...
Gabrielle
Trying to figure out how to do it in a way that you're happy with?
Alan
Yeah, exactly.
Gabrielle
But what would that look like?
Alan
I think again, very focusing in a lot more like, I guess, the spirituality of things. Because, when I was telling you when I was up that it was just a lot of feeling. I felt like a lot of the energy there, all the stories you hear, the stories of strange things happening. You know, you feel that energy is just like, how am I going to translate that? And it's like, so I ended up taking a really small sketchbook, really tiny one just kept it pocket and I just kept it everywhere I went. When I was seeing things, I was like, oh! Like, quick. Because I do really quick fire drawings, so just have it almost like a negative. So then when I look back on it, I look at it and I'm like, oh yeah, I remember what I did. And I did like 200.
Gabrielle
Wow.
Alan
Of those. So I got basically 200 pieces I've got to get on with. I've done about -- so far I got -- I'm working on about 30 pieces at the moment.
Gabrielle
Can we just look at this view.
Alan
Yeah. Yeah of course.
Gabrielle
30 pieces at the moment. At the same time.
Alan
Yeah, yeah.
Gabrielle
Are you doing a Sebastián [Espejo, see episode three] again? just you.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Sebastián was telling me he works on like, yeah 20, 30 paintings at the same time on purpose so that he like, forgets what he was trying to do. (laughing)
Alan
Yeah. It's a really good it's a really good way of -- Oh that's a really good view as well.
Gabrielle
That's cool.
Alan
Mountains are really coming through now, especially on this side. There it is a bit. It's amazing as well. Have you seen it in the sunset?
Gabrielle
Well when we were walking across the road the other day and it was pink.
Alan
Oh yeah.
Gabrielle
That was amazing.
Alan
It was amazing.
Gabrielle
I sort of just didn't expect that the sky and the light would affect the mountains as much as they did. Yeah. It was completely like -- it was completely different. Felt very special.
Alan
It really like brings on another element.
Gabrielle
Wow, but yeah, go on. You're working on 30.
Alan
Yeah. So usually I work on a lot of things because again like, how Seba does it, I kind of do the same when I'm like I've forgotten. And then it's also really good to kind of have time away from things instead of hyper focus or hyper fixating on that one thing I like to really like let it kind --
Gabrielle
God, I love fixating.
Alan
Yeah (laughing)
Gabrielle
I wonder now what would happen to my writing if I tried to do what you do and Sebastián do in terms of looking away and coming back.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
I just can't imagine it. I don't think I've got the bravery.
Alan
I guess you'd -- I wonder how that translates. I guess you'd have to, like, write a lot of things separately. Let's say 30 different things separately and then explore them later.
Gabrielle
Well, that's what I'm doing now. So I've been getting in from these big, long days, doing that, like writing something without editing, just writing it. And then when I get home I'll try and make it make sense.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Well, maybe it doesn't need to make sense. We'll see.
Alan
So, like, of what happened?
Gabrielle
What happened that day. The bits that feel like -- the bits that I want to remember.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Sort of like the equivalent of the things you want to take pictures of. The things you want to quickly draw.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
The ideas. Like, what has energy for me? And these little anecdotes. But it's getting difficult because obviously it's happening in a different language. And I'm like, how much of this did I understand? And I never want to ask.
Alan
Oh, but like that's great as well because that's your perception. It doesn't matter. You were there present in that moment and you just need to translate what you -- it's like what I do, I translate what I see and kind of, I've always kind of created things in my head. I was like creating stories. And narratives.
Gabrielle
You fill in the gaps.
Alan
You fill in the gaps yourself.
Gabrielle
Yeah, definitely. So then tell me, like what came out of the time in the Atacama?
Alan
When I went there, I didn't really have an idea of what essentially I wanted to do. And I don't think, you know, most people do when they go to things like that. But sometimes you're like, should I have something or should I not? And I was like, nah, just go there with as much as you can. I took, you know, that box I showed you with all my pastels, that had double the amount and it was really heavy. And I was carrying a backpack, so like backpack, and then I had about 400 pages of paper. So that was heavy. Sketchbooks in my pockets as well. So that was heavy. So I just kept adding weight to myself. And my plan originally was to take oil paints with me and like have like a pochade box full of paints and I kept thinking about that later, being like, I would have been annoyed at myself. I would have just been arguing with myself. (both laughing) But it was really heavy, especially having to change busses a few times and having to walk to go to get another bus, not knowing where that bus is, and then getting used to having to just speak to everyone because you're like, where is this? It definitely puts you in a position where you really have to like, interact with the world, where sometimes maybe when I'm in London, I just don't. I mean, I'm present, but I'm also like, observing but I don't interact. I'm not like me, 'excuse me, can you...?' But I'm interacting and everyone's really lovely and like, oh yeah, you just go down here or, you know, and it's like that kind of humanness that sometimes that being an artist, you kind of like you, you hide. I don't know if you hide yourself away, but sometimes you're observing it but not being present with it, maybe? But like when I was there, it was it became those quick fire. And that was the main thing that stuck now. I do it with post-it notes as well. Post-it notes are brilliant. My dad's always given me post-it notes growing up. It's like a thing.
Gabrielle
Just in case?
Alan
Like Christmas. He'd be like 'have a post-it note set.'
Gabrielle
(laughing) why?
Alan
I don't know, he does post-it notes. So I would just end up having loads, but also just collecting them. And they're really good to just like quickly do something and then stick it in a book, and then you've got these like reference points and you know, now I've got like my whole like Atacama book of these quick drawings.
Gabrielle
And that's like gold isn't it.
Alan
Exactly. And still when I look at them, I still remember what that place was or like, it's not just this element of it being surreal because of the stories they were telling of like the Incas, the Spaniards, the Atacameños living in the land. And I just kept like seeing them, visualizing them. And it was like being present in that, but also imagining the history and being like, it's so surreal like what really happened here, the interactions with these two different cultures like witnessing each other, and one place that we went to was like a, you know, like you get oasis in the desert? We got taken to one of these places and it was the most surreal thing. Like you see like in the distance, just like, like dunes and mountains and volcanoes and then just peaking -- and it's almost like you get into a curve or like you twist something in the angle in the landscape and then this oasis just appears and then it disappears.
Gabrielle
And it was water?
Alan
Yeah. Yeah. Like trees. Water. You get in the shade and it's so cold. It's freezing when you're in the shade. And, there were stories out there of like, I don't know if it was a conquistadors or maybe like later on, but people getting lost and then just finding it and appearing there and --
Gabrielle
You would think you were hallucinating it.
Alan
-- then losing it. Yeah.And you're kind of like there's -- there's food there, there was people living there as well, like hidden away. And then they wake up and they're like in the desert again. And it's like, oh, but it like exists in this -- it existed. It's there.
Gabrielle
It's like a pocket universe.
Alan
Yeah. It's really incredible being in those spaces.
Gabrielle
Oh my god, you're making me want to go!
Alan
Oh, you definitely will. You need to, you need to.
Gabrielle
I need to find a way.
Alan
You'll come back and you'll see those places 100%, because they are incredible. Like during the day, it was quite hard to actually get out because it became quite hot. So you'd be actually just -- I'd just be sleeping on the hammock.
Gabrielle
Yeah. Fair enough.
Alan
Kind of just like taking in. And then every other day we would get taken out to see, like, the most surreal landscapes I've ever walked through. I felt like I was on Mars. Yeah, I felt like things were going to come out and I just wanted them to come out. Yeah, I wanted to see things. I wanted to visualize things.
Alan
I walked through this one place or the ground was like, it was cracked everywhere. You walk through and it's just like (whooshing sounds) and, it was almost, like, crystallised. And then you see, like these jagged, kind of shaped mountains that were just like -- I would never see that in the UK or anywhere else in my mind. And going through that and then like -- because like we would like go off on our own, so they would just be like, 'hey, you've got two hours, just go off and see you later.' So I would just go off and you go through these spaces and you see these massive, like enormous -- like the size of, it felt like skyscrapers -- in my head, it was like skyscrapers. I lost the perception of distance and everything felt like grand and I felt small in this incredible landscape. And you could tell that, like, I was like, this must have been sea or something. Because the way that like -- the way it was, like carved was so beautiful, almost like it had that fluidity, you know, that almost like there must have been the ocean here, some kind of aggressive, like currents.
Gabrielle
Wow.
Alan
And that shaped all these rocks. And some of them were just, like, standing, almost like totems. Like carved. And I imagine the wind did that as well. But that whole, like, elemental thing of like in my head, I just kept like I just wanted to see, like something come out like a little head, like popping over or like, hello! And then you get to the top and then it's when you see distance again, and then got to the top, again there was a very high bit and I was with another artist, Pau (Fenty), a Mexican artist. And she went higher than me because I don't like heights. And I was getting a bit nervous in terms of, I was like, we're gonna fall and there's nothing like -- that's it (laughing). We looked over and you see, like these formations in the desert, and then you just look out and I was like, oh my God, there is no civilisation beyond. I can't see anything. It is just -- imagine looking at this, but it's just desert for like, eternity. It's like that.
Gabrielle
Urgh. Wow. I kind of think I need to see it, or not it, but that.
Alan
Oh, definitely. You definitely, you definitely should and have to because it's part of, you know, it's part of Chile.
Gabrielle
It's part of Chile.
Gabrielle
I'm saying it in a Scouse accent.
Alan
Chile.
Gabrielle
Chile.
Alan
I do it as well to be honest. I'd say Chile.
Gabrielle
But it is part of this country.
Alan
It's part of this country, you know, we've got -- well it was the driest desert in the world but it rainy recently (laughing) But there's definitely a lot of signs up there of things coming to visit from not, let's say, Earth. And I found that really fascinating. And, what I got told about where we were specifically was there was a lot of high lithium. So the first night that I slept there, I turned my sheets over during the night and I literally saw thunder. Like, as in --
Gabrielle
On the sheets?!
Alan
Like, literally turned it and I saw, like (whooshing noise) like thunder. It looked like thunder to me.
Gabrielle
WHAT?
Alan
And I was -- And that was my reaction. Like, what? What? There's like just high energy of, like, static, really, really strong energy. And that was like really it was really surreal just being like, what the hell's going on here?
Gabrielle
Oh my God.
Alan
And we went to -- I'm gonna have to remember this name, but we went to a lagoon, a blue lagoon. It was insane. Like crystal blue.
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Alan
There's like a volcano overlooking it.
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Alan
And, we were also told that there was a particular spot, and I took a photograph of which I have evidence of this of, like, you got that kind of like shades of -- shades of beige or shades of desert. Shades of earth colors. Yeah. And then there's a black dot and our guide was like, oh, yeah, that's where that object landed and it's always stayed black since.
Gabrielle
What object? Just that object?
Alan
That object remains to be researched.
Gabrielle
It's funnier to have this conversation in English when you were saying that there are things not of this Earth because you said to me the other day that, you know, you can really feel the difference between like how people in England think UFO-type stuff or like mythological-type stuff is just a story, but it means something else here.
Alan
Yeah.
Gabrielle
Can we go this way?
Alan
Yeah. When I described kind of like coming to Chile, there's this element that like, I know Europe exists, but then it also like stops in my mind. And then I come into this kind of like reality here where you hear stories and you hear things and people see things and you feel things. And, when I was telling you guys about just being in the house near the beach recently experiencing someone touched my shoulder, and I 100% felt like a hand touching my shoulder, and I looked, and there was no one there. But then there was like -- it wasn't like a fear. There was like calmness of like, oh, hi, you know, it wasn't - it didn't feel threatening.
Gabrielle
And if someone was to touch your hand -- touch your shoulder -- and there be no one there and you were in like Cornwall, how would you feel?
Alan
If I was in Cornwall? (laughing) I think -- I think I oddly would freak out a bit more.
Gabrielle
That's what I mean. Like, yeah, I just, I'm trying to get at the distinction.
Alan
Yeah. I think I would freak out a bit more. And I think here like, like we celebrate -- there is day of the dead. There's that connection to death. People go have picnics at gravesites and stuff to be with their family. And so like when we were out there and, when we were out in San Pedro, one of the guys that was there told us a story that him and his partner were out in the desert, and they were like, having a fire, having a couple of drinks and stuff. And again, this is like barren landscape. There's no one about. And, he said they saw a shape of something that came out of like a low bush. And he said it was like he said it was almost human height. And he kind of just like kind of stood up and not to say confronted it, but like, just made his presence known that I'm like, I'm here as well. And then it kind of like retreated back and then that was it. But it was like again, when he was telling us the story, it was like that fearlessness -- I felt from him that he wasn't scared at all. And again, I don't know how I'd react if I see something. I definitely feel like my heart would be literally trying to punch out of my body. It's really interesting that you were saying that about like how like here it's taken very seriously.
Gabrielle
But it's like everyone has stories. And it's not like for entertainment. I think that's the difference for me. Like because my granddad is from Calbuco, then looking into Calbuco, it very quickly got to myths and like here are the creatures that live in the water. And I was like oh, okay. But that felt again, there was something natural about it. Or comfortable or something.
Alan
I had that same conversation with my uncle. I had a book on sea monsters, and I remember showing him like, oh, like. And then he literally pointed and went 'South of Chile, you're going to see things.'
Gabrielle
Yeahhh.
Alan
And that's the thing people, people do. I got told -- this is first hand, my auntie told me the story and there was five people that witnessed it. And they were going through the Pampas in Argentina and, I don't know what order I'm going to say this in because I could be wrong, but they saw loads of dead alpacas.
Gabrielle
Oh, I can't get it out. (Laughing) My gatorade's got, like, a fucking mayonnaise lid on it. Sorry. Yeah. Go on. Loads of dead alpacas. That's already fucking alarming.
Alan
Like, they were seeing loads of dead alpacas everywhere and they were like, what? And this is one aspect of the story. But I'll say what happened straight after this. So they went back and they were all gone. Like completely disappeared. And obviously everyone was like, oh, that's strange. And then the second story was going through that, but they were hitting a storm. So it was really -- I think it was really rainy and it was like really slow driving through the pampas again. The Pampas is very -- it's like kind of you got those little bushes quite kind of, I guess, like the moors? It had this element of the moors, but just vast and like flat and miles. And then you see mountains in the distance. And that's kind of it. That's your landscape. And they said they were like -- they said they were going through it. And then at one point they all said they all felt this lightnessness and they all were like were floating. They were in a truck and they were like -- they were just -- there was a point where they were just all like, almost like something was lifting them up and they were just floating. And there was five people that were all experiencing that same thing.
Gabrielle
God, I wonder what lifted them up.
Alan
Well, again, it's that whole thing of like, you know, I know my auntie would tell me stories of like seeing lights, odd lights, in the most southern city, in Punta Arenas. And then she was saying, like the next day loads of scientists appeared, and then they went in the direction of the lights and, you know, things like that. And, and like, a classic is objects just coming out of the sea.
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Alan
That's like really common down there.
Gabrielle
I don't think anyone in England knows this stuff. (laughing) Do you know what I mean?
Alan
No, no, I don't know, like.
Gabrielle
They already don't know much about Chile.
Alan
That's so true.
Gabrielle
So to add this into the mix.
Alan
Add to this, and be like 'what?!'
Gabrielle
‘Wait what? Objects coming out of the sea.’
Alan
Yeah. But again it's all in that kind of -- like just said in a very like factual like, 'Yeah, they just come out of the sea. You're going to see things in the sea,' because everyone like does see it. And when I was there, I saw lights that were moving, not like, in a very like rounded fashion together, like kind of like, swirling together in the sky. Close to the volcano. And then they kind of just disappeared.
Gabrielle (back in the studio)
I then got on a flight to the south of Chile, and a few days later, something happened that I still can't explain. Yeah, I -- and that scared me, but then the fear of it made me think about what Alan had said and it really, like, brought the fear down. Now, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you a little ghost story, but it's so tempting. It's so tempting to do it because I'm sat in England and it's fun to, like, say these things like they're a bit of gossip and I'm gonna keep it. I'm gonna keep it for me, and I'm gonna put it in the book that I'm writing because I think, like, actually, you need to read it in context of, like, you know, I'm not gonna -- I'm not going to get into it now. Oh, it's too much. It's literally too much. But the first person I text was Alan. I was like here's seven texts about what has just happened. And yeah, it was really nice to -- it was really nice to speak to someone who had sort of like almost introduced me, introduced me...? I don't know if that's the word. He'd gotten me ready for it, is what I'd say.
(back on the date)
Alan
I only just recently started exploring oil paintings, and took me like years to actually enjoy it.
Gabrielle
Yeah, why?
Alan
I think because my brain was so attuned in a particular way of working that was like, I guess to an extent, maybe more faster paced that the fact that you had to wait for things to dry and, you know, if I wanted to layer, I couldn't straight away because then it would just react straight away. And the weird thing is, because I really I love gouache painting as well and with gouache you don't you have to, it dries straight away. But then you add, you add water and then the color reacts. So it's never essentially fully -- it's dry, but it will react. Whereas with oil it will dry and it will just dry and it'll be like six months later or whatever, however long it takes. And it was really like adjusting to that whole like thing and being even more like thoughtful in what I had to do because, like, I had to just wait and I would just stare, you know, and that's where like --
Gabrielle
And that's very different from like the very quick draw and the post-its and--
Alan
Exactly. It was like almost like, oh God, I know painters that do it really fast.
Gabrielle
I was I thought your answer for like why you were like, it took you a long time to enjoy was because of colour.
Alan
No, I mean like --
Gabrielle
Because it's so different. I think.
Alan
The colour aspect was like interesting figuring that out because I'm so used to having the, the colour that I want, putting it, applying it and then it's there. With oil that wasn't happening. And I was like, oh, so that was where like a lot of frustration like kind of started to like happen. But it was just constantly wanting to figure out why. You know, just kind of like searching for why is it not that, and because it was so slow as well, it took even longer to figure it out.
Gabrielle
The way you make images is with like, blocks of color. It's like jigsaw. But mixing colours in oil, you have to use so much to make so much. But to get it to such a specific one flat colour, and then it's like you've got it right now. You have to use it right now. That bit feels like so high stakes.
Alan
You know what? It is to an extent. But also like I started to find it really exciting in terms of like -- and because I would work because with oil painting, I started working bigger just to, like, try it out, like bigger scales. And when I started doing that, it really like built a pattern with all the other pieces because they all had like elements of one colour that I got excited by.
Gabrielle
I see
Alan
And then I'm like, oh, this colour look good here as well. So I'll bring the other one out quickly and then it'll be like using that. And then there's like a cohesion with all the pieces.
Gabrielle
Yeah. That's nice.
Alan
The thing that I also found with oil painting was the endlessness of it. It felt like, 'when is this gonna end?' Because I didn't, I couldn't. There was one piece I posted a couple of months back, and I've been working on that for two years, and I've been staring at it for a while. And then one day I looked at it again and I was like, oh no, that is finished. I didn't realise, you know, but it's that constant like knowing--
Gabrielle
Knowing you can like reopen the case.
Alan
Exactly. And as well like it's not, it's not like a closed story. It could still like expand. And whereas like with the wax pastels it has like a, it has a limit.
Gabrielle
And there's only so much like the paper and all that can like take.
Alan
Exactly. So I'm restricted to colour and restricted to what the paper can take and restricted to how you can layer it. So it kind of gives you this restriction. I was like, oh, okay, this is where it ends.
Gabrielle
Yeah, yeah.
Alan
Whereas with oil painting it's like, oh God, I could just keep going really. It has been a lot of fun and exciting and when you go bigger, it's like also like a nice challenge as well.
Gabrielle
Especially for someone who studied illustration, I imagine. Do you know what I mean? I feel like illustration's on a smaller scale.
Alan
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's that element. But even with like the big paintings, I guess like everyone, but I work incredibly close in my space. So like, I have these big, like, really big pieces, but I'm literally like almost my nose is touching them. And I'm so used to that.
Gabrielle
That's like a pro gamer on the screen. with the keyboard and the mouse. (laughing)
Alan
Literally like that. But I always feel like I'm just so used to that, that like when I look because -- when I go to like a gallery and I look at a painting, I have to step at least, like, I don't know, let's say 6 to 7 to maybe 8 meters away to really understand what I'm looking at. And that's how it all connects together. So that's why, like I started taking photographs of the pieces I'm doing. So then I can get that perception through the picture just to be like, oh, okay, that's what -- because I'm just used to looking at it like in such a close proximity. But that's just now, I've just become so used to that way of working there. So, so the challenge is like working big like that, but in a very like close environment.
Gabrielle
You're going to be one of those people who, like, makes things too big to get out the room.
Alan
Yeah. Yeah. I kind of have slightly been doing that (audio fades)
(back in the studio)
Gabrielle
It was fun to talk about, like this idea of making painting up close in a small studio, but taking photos of them to see them from further away and just that reminding me again of that conversation of scale and this image of Alan in the desert thinking something's only half an hour away, but it's actually two hours. This like constant play of space that happens in Chile because of just the sheer scale of nature and how small the major cities feel in those places, how small the skyscrapers look, because the sky and the mountains are just so big.
I'm so glad I got to record this conversation. It just feels really important for me to remember how that month began. You know, the day (after*) I got on a second plane down south and met up with other artists and recorded different conversations and saw different moments of sublime in volcanoes and monkey puzzle forests.
All of this was only possible because I got a project grant from Arts Council England to go to Chile to research the book that I'm working on. You'll hear more about that book very soon, but if you want to find out more about Arts Council England Project grants, you can click the link in the show notes to find out more. Don't forget all the photos from this date are on the website artdates.co.uk. Thank you very much for listening and I will see you in the next episode of Art Dates. Bye bye.
(jingle)